How to piss off people

Remember when I tried to use Canola? Well, I’m a happy user of UKMP (which is getting features and bug fixes in a weekly basis), but I can’t help to stop and read stuff when INdT says it is working in a new version of Canola, which should be the “best thing since sliced bread”.

Since I’m a coder, I can say that:

  1. Jumping from toolkit to toolkit means you don’t understand what “community” means;
  2. Choosing a toolkit just because it is the “new shinny thing” is not a good methodology (see “Duke Nukem Forever” and its three rendering engine history);
  3. hidding comments because they ask the dreadful question is not nice.

Honestly, I really can’t care about such thing anymore. Canola will not succeed by itself in its current pace (maybe because it is a Nokia thing they will push it in their devices) unless those guys realize what a community is.

2 thoughts on “How to piss off people

  1. Hi,

    I fully understand your point, but I would of course like to express mine =)
    First I’m pretty proud of konttori media player. Why? Because we worked hard to make python for maemo a solid tool, and a lot of bindings were done to allow developers to do great stuff like UKMP. Also gustavo one of canola’s main code helped konttori as he could(as far as I know), as we don’t think about competition or other things. We think about making maemo a great platform. So not only proud of having a great media player as choice instead of canola, but also proud that you are a happy user( so a happy maemo user)

    so answering :
    1. We are not jumping. And actually that was the problem, we didn’t had a toolkit =) not even close to pygame like UKMP is using. it’s quite a drag to develop with pure sdl, so you’re coder you know what I’m saying. So we needed more than a toolkit. Actually we needed a scene control / ui script language etc. It took a lot of time to choose the best options exactly to not fall in the error you say : to jump from toolkit from toolkit.

    2. Actually we chose it not because it’s the “new shinny thing” but because it was : the best options for our requirements, 2. a way of not having to re-invent the whell, 3. a VERY solid and mature code base, 4. the creator and maintainer was great on receiving us and advising how to improve the 16bit version of it. The best part was: we did a lot (and I really mean it) of optmization and it’s all open source on the official enlightenment repository. Fully compatible with the project community.

    3. I have a pretty simple wordpress blog, and I use askimet. So I read your trackback and saw in the spam category (sorry I really don’t read the spam part) I tend to believe askimet.

    but I have to admit one thing : It’s really a dreadful question! But not exactly for me, because if it was about me, or gustavo, or the other guys, all our work would be already fully open sourced. But when you really don’t have power or actually “voice” to answer.. it really hurts. So the answer? is I don’t know. But you are a coder, so I can say something to you : New canola is almost a bunch of scripts (EDJE, Python).

    So, again I agree with you if we were doing the pace that we were doing, but things are really different now. We have people, and I can assure you: after the huge amount of groundbase work we are faster then ever. We are not only solving every single thing left behind, but actually solving it in the best way, not hacking workarounds.
    Second and maybe kind of scary : It’s not a Nokia thing. I swear. I know the company has Nokia on it’s name but they didn’t support Canola, and that’s why you don’t see it pre-installed. It was a full on our own project, and we have different goals now.

    About the community part: we have lot’s of projects, and we are improving our community skills, but I wouldn’t say we don’t know what or how to deal with this, canola unfortunately was closed by the upper management and this kill any chance of building a normal community around it. I and the other guys in the project tried to do our best : to solve features, to keep the garage request on development even on a lot of our free time, because we do other projects in parallel.

    So sorry if the askimet made you even more pissed with us, but I can assure you again : we are trying to do our best with the tools and freedom we have. I know it’s not enough but if we can at least influence a little bit other projects or give developer a nice platform to work on this will be enough.

    and ps : I finally read also your previous post and what I have to say is :
    One : we are more stable than most of the application. If we could hack freely on the platform we would fix the dbus issue that was the only real thing. Not only this but also other problems, unfortunately we are not as you think a brazilian arm of nokia. So we don’t have that much “power” inside the platform. And to the fact of running a application on top of linux / free things: Skype isn’t open, even the keyboard thing was not open, a LOT of things are getting open with the time, and sometimes developers (like at Nokia and also here) needs to deal with Management that thinks a little bit different from us in the matters of releasing code (unfortunately). So you cannot like it, but I need to disagree that it’s a crappy application. We use the N800 daily with lots of available application and we made something pretty solid. When crash happens we are not blaming others, we are helping them fix or even doing the fix ourselves even in codebase that are not ours. Like you said people would like to do with canola. But again, you have the final choice : just do no t use :/ I will not lie and say that I don’t care, because I would like to see not you but any maemo user satisfied and also the developers (All of our friends ask for the release also) but it’s just beyond our hands. ( and god we fight with the managers to open it…)

    Best regards,

    Marcelo

  2. Hi slow,

    >1. Jumping from toolkit to toolkit means you don’t understand what “community” means;
    We are not jumping from toolkit to toolkit. As you may understand how a community works, you probably understand that its wonderful to have as much options you (user, developer) can, so you can be free to choose how you want to use the device or code for it.

    >2. Choosing a toolkit just because it is the “new shinny thing” is not a good methodology (see >”Duke Nukem Forever” and its three rendering engine history);
    And who did that ? I can understand that the lack of news about our work or canola’s development may let people think that we just decided it yesterday because we liked some silly demo about etk. Besides that, Gustavo Barbieri showed that we should take this direction as he was one of the canola’s developer and was porting Evas to the device (if you read planet maemo or subscribe the list you should know that – either if you came to bossa-conference and saw him talking until late with rasterman trying to understand if it were possible).
    Probably the release of evas at garage.maemo.org would show that too.

    One point that I couldnt understand about your post titled “It sounded dirty, but I decided to dig anyway; I just found more dirt” was that one that you were comparing INdT with Microsoft: besides Canola, INdT always helped maemo community with code, apps and platform utilities (may I remember you about pymaemo, Carman, GMyth, tapioca and others ?). I understand your point about Canola being opensource and agree with you at that as I’m a developer and Linux user since 1997 but maybe you need to see the whole scenario before blaming people. I hope that our decisions to the next Canola version brings more users to this application, to the platform, the community and also makes Canola be full opensource. Trust me when I say that we also want that.

    Best regards,

    MoRpHeUz

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